If you become PM? Modi: My main priority today are the 6 lakh Gujarati people and their well-being. I have tasted the salt of Gujarat and am sharing this salt with everybody in India

Excerpts from the interview of Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi that was carried by Delhi-based Urdu weekly Nai Duniya, edited and published by Samajwadi Party member Shahid Siddiqui, under the headline: “Hang me if I am guilty.” Translation by Imran Ahmed Siddiqui of The Telegraph:

Hindu Rashtra

Shahid Siddiqui: Narendra Modiji, what do you think of India? Do you want to convert India into a Hindu Rashtra? What kind of India do you want in the next 50 years?

Modi: I want to see India as a prosperous and strong country. I wish the 21st century would be the century of India. This is my dream and it has to be fulfilled.

SS: It is said that you are trying to use Gujarat as a laboratory for a Hindu Rashtra. Would you like to convert India into a Hindu Rashtra if you win the general election? What would be the status of Muslims and other minorities then?

Modi: The condition of the minorities in Gujarat today is better than anywhere else in the country. And there is a need for further betterment of their condition like that of Hindus. Muslims should get opportunities to progress in life as Hindus do. If there is bias, it is not possible to run a household. There cannot be peace if you treat one daughter-in-law well and another badly.

SS: Suppose there are four children in a house. If one of them is weak and lags behind, should one not pay extra attention to him? Shouldn’t he be given better opportunities to excel?

Modi: Our Constitution says that those who are economically weak and backward should be given special assistance. If society does not assume responsibility for them, who would? If a child is mentally challenged, it is the responsibility of not only his parents but the whole of society to look after him. It would be wrong if we say: “This is your child and only you should take care of him.”

Reservation for Muslims

SS: Several surveys conducted in the country, whether by the Sachar Committee or the Ranganath Commission, have highlighted how Muslims remain educationally and economically backward because of several reasons. What do you think are the measures that should be taken to improve their condition? Should they not get reservation? What should be done to bring them into the mainstream, as all the doors are closed to them?

Modi: It isn’t like that. There are 36 communities in Gujarat under the OBC category and they are given all assistance and benefits. I too belong to a backward community. We have to find ways so that everybody gets benefited from that.

People are still illiterate despite there being schools and teachers, but we have found a solution in Gujarat. We started a movement in Gujarat to ensure 100 per cent literacy among girls. Every year, in the scorching heat of June, our government officials visit 18,000 households to inspect whether the girls are studying or not.

Today, 99 per cent of the girls are going to school and they belong to all religions. Earlier, the dropout rate was 40 per cent but now it is hardly two per cent. Now you know who is benefiting from it.

I do not believe in a Hindu-Muslim philosophy; I ensure that all children from Gujarat are benefited. During the past ten years of my tenure, I have been feeling so happy that when I call a meeting of parents at a Hindu school only 60 per cent of them turn up but when I hold meetings in Muslim-dominated areas, 100 per cent parents attend it.

SS: Have you held such meetings in Muslim areas?

Modi: Several such meetings. From my experience I can say that Muslims today have become more conscious about education. I had gone to a village in Gujarat where more than 70 per cent of the population was Muslim. Three girl students from Class VII and Class VIII came to me and said they wanted to talk to me privately.

I did not know about their religion. I asked everybody to go out and spoke to them. All the three girls were Muslims. They told me they wanted to study further and excel in life but their parents would not allow them. They requested me to convince their parents.

I was so touched to learn that there were three girls in Gujarat who wanted to study further and did not even hesitate to approach ministers for help. I asked their parents to listen to the girls. This happened two years ago and the three girls are still studying.

SS: You are right. Muslims have got a share in OBC reservations but not their full rights 20 years after the Mandal Commission (recommendations were accepted).

Say, there are 500 applicants for ten vacancies. Fifty per cent of the applicants are Muslims but people belonging to Hindu backward communities get all the ten jobs and the Muslims do not get anything. This is why the Sachar Committee had recommended separate reservation for minorities; otherwise they would not get their share of jobs.

Modi: After much deliberation, India’s lawmakers (framers of the Constitution) had decided there should not be any religion-based reservation; otherwise it will be dangerous. At that time, there was no RSS or Bajrang Dal.

SS: Muslim leaders including Maulana (Abul Kalam) Azad had opposed reservation based on religion. But we should learn from our experience of the last 64 years. We have made enough amendments to the Constitution and if we give reservation to Muslims after 64 years to help them step out of backwardness, then do you have any problem?

Modi: No, no. There cannot be any change to the fundamental structure of our Constitution. But I want to say something else. The percentage of Muslims in government jobs in the states that you call secular and prosperous is only two to four per cent. Muslims are nine per cent of Gujarat’s population but their share in jobs is 12 to 13 per cent. In Bengal, there are 25 per cent Muslims but only two per cent of them are in jobs. I am not saying this (making this up); these figures are based on the Sachar Committee report.

SS: In Gujarat, Muslims were far ahead and not because of your contribution. Muslims were ahead in education and business.

Modi: Let’s accept what you are saying. In the past 20 years, the BJP has headed the government in Gujarat. If we were destroying them, would they have been ahead in education and business? If we were anti-Muslim, they would have become backward. The Sachar Committee survey was conducted when I was the chief minister. Of the total recruitment of six lakh in government jobs, the recruitment of three lakh took place during my tenure.

SS: Were there 10-12 per cent Muslims among the recruits during your tenure?

Modi: No, I have not counted. It is not my philosophy to count on the basis of Hindu-Muslim. My job is to give opportunity to everyone based on their merit and without any bias. If somebody is Muslim, he will get an opportunity and if he is Hindu or Parsi, then too he will get (an opportunity). If you trust the Sachar Committee report, why don’t you believe its report on Gujarat?

What happened during the riots?

SS: If we talk about the Gujarat riots, tell me what happened then. Why were the bodies of those who got burnt in the train in Godhra brought back to Ahmedabad? Did you not understand its repercussions?

Modi: I have answered this question in detail to the SIT (special investigation team) and the Supreme Court. No matter whose body it is, it needs to be returned to his family. It was not right for everyone to go to Godhra where there was tension. There was tension in Godhra and that’s why it was important to remove the charred bodies from there.

The train was going to Ahmedabad and the passengers were all going to Ahmedabad and their family members were waiting for them at the station. So how do you get the bodies to reach their families?

SS: You could have silently brought the bodies to a hospital and handed them over to their families. Why were the bodies taken out in a procession?

Modi: Now you should listen to the truth. There was no place in Godhra to keep so many bodies and that’s why it needed to be removed from there. It was an administrative decision to remove the bodies in the darkness of the night to reduce tension.

The bodies could have been brought to the civil hospital in Ahmedabad but it is a crowded place and that was a good decision (not to take the bodies there) and could have led to tension. It was a good decision on the part of the administration to take the bodies to the Shola civil hospital.

During those days, Shola was on the outskirts of Ahmedabad and was not as populated as it is now. No procession was brought out from Shola and the bodies were handed over to the families silently. There were 13-14 bodies that could not be identified and those were cremated behind the hospital. We maintained enough caution but who can stop lies from spreading?

Why were the riots not stopped?

SS: Riots broke out in Gujarat; people were killed and houses set on fire. You were the chief minister of Gujarat and you knew what was happening there in Ahmedabad. What steps did you take to stop the killings?

Modi: First, we appealed to people to remain calm and maintain peace. I made the appeal from Godhra itself. After that I appealed from Ahmedabad on radio and TV. I asked the administration to deploy the entire police force. There had never been a riot this big in the country before and it was the first riot in the age of 24x7 media.

Earlier, the government had the time to organise its machinery as news would break out only in the following day’s newspapers. Now the administration has to compete with the speed of TV channels as they telecast the news of any incident within a few minutes. From Ahmedabad, I can speak to someone in Baroda over the phone in a few minutes but it would take a minimum of two hours for police personnel to reach there. The police cannot compete with the speed of TV news.

Second, I would not like to compare it with other riots in the country to make my point. A riot is a riot. In the 1984 riots, there wasn’t even one shot fired from police guns, no lathi-charge. There was a lathi-charge only at one place where Indira Gandhi’s body was kept. A huge crowd had assembled there and they (the police) lathi-charged it to control the crowds but they were not deployed to control the riots.

But in Gujarat, curfew was imposed on February 27; steps were taken and people were lathi-charged and the police had to open fire.

Were Hindus given a free run?

SS: Your party colleagues and your officials say you told the people to vent their anger in the first 48 hours. Even Haren Pandya (then Gujarat home minister) and Sanjiv Bhatt (the IPS officer who has filed an affidavit in the Supreme Court accusing Modi of letting the violence happen) made this allegation against you. What do you have to say on this?

Modi: You have to trust somebody. If you don’t trust me, you have to trust the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court asked for an investigation to be conducted. We should trust that. For the first time in this country an investigation was conducted into a riot.

I am telling you now what steps I took, at how many places guns were fired, how many were killed. These days, the media are present everywhere and nothing can be hidden. The Godhra incident took place on February 27, the riots broke out the next day, and I called the army on March 1.

Some people in the media say I did not call the army for three days but they forget that there are 28 days in February. I called the army the very next day and they took control of Ahmedabad after that. You should think before hurling abuses.

Were the riots pre-planned?

SS: It seemed that the riots were pre-planned. Houses and shops belonging to Muslims were identified and set on fire as though the whole thing was pre-planned.

Modi: It’s all a lie; a propaganda. Instead, think about how many Muslims were protected then. If they were to be killed systematically, who would have been spared today? All the details about the steps taken during that time are with the SIT.

SS: Indian Muslims are grievously hurt. They have suspicions and that’s why they want to know the truth. Were your ministers present in the (police) control room?

Modi: It’s all lies. All the facts are with the SIT. The Supreme Court conducted an investigation. You should wait to learn what they have found. It does not make any difference what I say.

SS: Did you know about the riots that broke out in Ahmedabad? Did you make a round of the city and go to the refugee camps yourself?

Modi: I went everywhere and investigated. This is a propaganda against me that the government did not set up refugee camps. Even during the devastating earthquake (of January 2001) we did not set up any camp. We had employed social organisations and provided them with all the facilities, including rations, to help the people.

It is possible that Muslims set up and ran the camps (for riot victims) but the government provided all the facilities. We have all the records, including those of the rations supplied to all those camps.

Besides, we made all arrangements for the students who were appearing in their Class X examination. Muslims boys and girls appeared in the exam and passed. People who made the allegations went to court on this but were proved wrong. But the media as well as some other people are bent on maligning me by spreading lies.

What did then Prime Minister Vajpayee tell you?

SS: What did Atal Bihari Vajpayee tell you at that point? Did he tell you that you had failed to follow Rajdharma?

Modi: This is a lie. During his speech, Atalji said Rajdharma should be maintained and he also said that Rajdharma had always been maintained in Gujarat. But the media distorted it by reporting only a portion of the sentence uttered by Atalji.

SS: It has been ten years since then. What did Atalji tell you? What steps did you take to control the riots? Tell us something about the conversation you had with the then Prime Minister.

Modi: He said we needed to work together to do good to people and to control the situation.

“Hang me if I am guilty”

SS: Rajiv Gandhi apologised after the 1984 riots and stern action was taken against H.K.L. Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar. Their political careers ended. Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh too apologised. Why did you not apologise for the 2002 Gujarat riots and express regret? As the head of the government, it was your moral responsibility to do so.

Modi: First, you should see the statements I had made during that violent situation. From that you will understand what Modi thinks and believes. In an interview in 2004, I had said the same thing: if my government is responsible for this then it should be hanged in the middle of the road.

And they (the administrators) should be hanged in such a fashion that no administrator dares commit that sin again. And those who talk of forgiving them are in a way encouraging the crime. If Modi has sinned, then Modi should be hanged. But, even after I tried sincerely to save many lives, if some people want to hurl abuses at me because of political reasons, I don’t have anything to say.

SS: Do you feel hurt after what happened? Is there any sorrow in your heart and do you want to apologise as hundreds of people were killed? I am the editor, and if a correspondent of mine gives me wrong information and I print it, then I apologise.

Modi: What is the point in apologising now? I took full responsibility for what happened during that time, expressed sorrow and apologised. Please check what I said in 2002 after the riots. Now you should write that you (the media) have been doing injustice to me for the past ten years. You should now apologise to Modi.

Why did people not get justice?

SS: What happened after the riots? Why have Muslims not received justice till date? Your administration acquitted all the murderers. You did not take any steps until the Supreme Court formed the SIT.

Modi: You are a victim of untrue propaganda.

SS: Is the entire world a victim of propaganda?

Modi: There is one group that has a vested interest is spreading all this. If you are talking about the SIT, they have investigated only eight to nine cases. For your information, there have been thousands of FIRs and arrests. Not a single person was punished for the 1984 riots but in my Gujarat, justice has been delivered in more than 50 cases.

SS: In the past ten years, there have been several “encounters” (extra-judicial killings by police) of Muslims in Gujarat. Cases are going on and your police officers are in jail in connection with the cases.

Modi: Please listen to me. Before the UP elections, Mayawati had said in her campaigns that she had set up 393 encounters to maintain peace and normality. In my state there were just 12 encounters and the cases are going on in the courts. So far, nobody has been convicted.

The National Human Rights Commission has said that 400 encounters have been found to have been fake encounters in the past 10 years. An appeal has been filed in the Supreme Court seeking re-investigation of those cases. Why are they not being investigated? Why is Gujarat alone being targeted?

Modi as Prime Minister

SS: It is being said that you are preparing to become Prime Minister of India and you want to leave Gujarat to make a mark as a national leader. What are the five important things you would do if you became PM?

Modi: Look, essentially I am an organisation person and became chief minister under special circumstances. I had not even fought a school election for the post of monitor and was never an election agent for anybody. I do not belong to that world and do not have anything to do with it.

My main priority today are the six lakh Gujarati people and their well-being. If I do some good work in Gujarat, then ten people from UP and Bihar get jobs. I want to serve India through the development of Gujarat. If good quality salt is produced in Gujarat, the entire country will taste it. I have tasted the salt of Gujarat and am sharing this salt with everybody in India.

Modi’s secularism

SS: Modiji, do you have faith in secularism? Would you like to see India as a secular country?

Modi: Those trying to teach secularism to India are basically humiliating the country. This has been a secular country since its birth. Now you should find out who the forces are in the country that have destroyed secularism in India.

SS: You often use the word “pseudo-secular”. What does it mean?

Modi: The pseudo-secular are those who project themselves as secular but are not; those who preach a lot about lofty things but are essentially communal.

Shankersinh Vaghela had earlier been a BJP leader but has now become a great secular leader. You should ask him where he was when the Babri mosque was demolished. After he joined the Congress, he became secular. He tells Muslims he is fighting against Modi and asks them to vote for him. This is what we call pseudo-secularism.

Revolt against Modi

SS: There is a revolt against you in your party.

Modi: I have left it to the common people to decide. I have won all the elections in the past ten years and have full confidence that I shall win the next one too.

SS: Thank you very much. Would you like to send any message to Indian Muslims?

Modi: Brother, I am a small person and I do not have any right to send any message to anybody. I am a servant and will continue to serve. I would like to tell my Muslim brothers that they should not reduce themselves to voters for others.

Muslims have been reduced to mere voters in Indian politics today. Muslims should dream; their dreams and the dreams of their children should be fulfilled. They are voters and they must use their rights with an open mind. But before that they should be treated as human beings and as Indians.

There is also a need to understand their problems. If I can be of any help to them, I would surely love to assist them. But they too will have to think and see with an open mind.