Mythologist-philosopher Amish was in town recently for the Calcutta launch of his latest book, The Chola Tigers: Avengers of Somnath. The second part of his Indic Chronicles series, released in October by Harper Fiction India and following in the wake of Legend of Suheldev, continues the story of the Ghaznavid empire and brings it down south to the land and times of Emperor Rajendra Chola in his efforts to defeat one of the most infamous names that ever sullied Indian history — Mahmud of Ghazni.
The new historical fiction novel is rooted in real events and figures, drawing from the life and conquests of Rajendra Chola and the turbulent aftermath of Ghazni’s invasion of the Somnath temple in Gujarat. True to his style, Amish’s book transcends historical retelling and acts instead as an inquiry into morality, duty and the enduring values that have shaped Indian civilisation for centuries.
t2oS caught up with the man who wears many feathers in his cap for a chat on all things Dharma, karma, and why he thinks India will never die. Excerpts.
Welcome back to Calcutta! You have lots of fond memories of this city, I am sure…
I did my MBA in Calcutta. I was here from 1995 to 1997 — long ago. I am 51 now; I’m old! But I love coming back here. I love the culture here. I have always liked being here. It’s been a longish break, actually; I haven’t been for some time. I’ve just been so busy — I have so many other projects running. It’s not just books; I host and produce documentaries, there’s a podcast, there’s a video game coming up, there’s a movie coming up next year — so tons of projects. Because of that, I haven’t been able to visit as often. But yes, it’s been fantastic. We arrived yesterday, and we had a bunch of signings, events — good stuff.
The last time we spoke, the Indic Chronicles had just begun to take shape, and you had mentioned then that this series was your attempt to explore different facets of India’s civilisational story through distinct, separate historical dynasties. And now, of course, The House of Cholas and The Legend of Suheldev, before this, are out. How do you think the vision of this larger project has evolved, and how have you been learning from it along the process?
I think it’s moving in the right direction. I have many more books to come out, and let me explain this from three aspects.
Amish Tripathi
One, the way our national history textbooks have been, there’s been an excessive Delhi focus, which, and I’ll repeat very carefully: I’m not saying Delhi is not important; it is important. But other regions of India need to get fair airtime as well, because other regions are also important. Particularly, the history of the last thousand years — it’s almost like everything that happened, happened only between Khyber and Agra, and the rest of India is ignored.
I studied in South India, my schooling was in Tamil Nadu, and I remember my South Indian friends used to get very offended by a term in the history textbooks at that time, in which two chapters would come in and the title was ‘Meanwhile in the South’. I kid you not, that was the title! And you can imagine my Tamil friends, my South Indian friends, would be like, “What the hell? We are ‘meanwhile’, and everything is happening in Delhi?!” But then I told them, very rightly, that the South is at least getting a ‘meanwhile’. West India, Central India, East India, North East India — we don’t even get a ‘meanwhile’!
So many people and eras are simply overlooked in our history books. Bhojdev Parmar is ignored, the Marathas are frankly ignored, the Pratiharas are ignored, the Palas of Bengal are ignored, the Senas are ignored, the Ahoms are ignored, the Garhwalis — they are all just ignored, right? And this has not given us a good understanding of our own history. If we knew the Southern, Western, and Eastern regions, we’d know that actually we were a seafaring nation, one of the greatest trading nations of the ancient world. We don’t get that conception. So that’s the first thing — to try to balance out from Delhi.
Second, the way the last thousand years have been shown. If you think about it, British colonial rule is not called the Christian invasion, but Turkic colonial rule is called the Islamic invasion. Now, the British came up with this formulation for very obvious reasons — they wanted to create a Hindu-Muslim rift. The thing I have a grievance with is, why did our establishment historians carry on with this formulation post-1947? It creates confusion in the minds of Indians. We think Alauddin Khilji looked like Ranveer Singh, or Akbar looked like Hrithik Roshan or Prithviraj Kapoor. If you’ve noticed, in the Amar Chitra Katha comics, the drawings of Akbar look a bit like Prithiviraj Kapoor! But to us, they would have looked Asian. The Turks were Central Asian, from the steppe lands.
But it creates problems today. What was actually an Indian-foreigner fight has been converted into a Hindu-Muslim fight. Indian Muslims were as oppressed as Indian Hindus by these foreign rulers, just like Indian Christians were oppressed by the British. That’s the second thing that the books have been misleading us on.
Thirdly, again, the story of the last thousand years. The last thousand years have been shown to be a history of repeated defeats, and a question that had arisen in my mind in school was: if we had been losing every major battle for a thousand years, why the hell are we still alive? We should be dead. Because the invaders who came here went to other parts of the world as well. Is Russian Persia alive? No, it’s dead — 0.5, 0.75 per cent of the population is still alive, according to the last census. Is Pharaonic Egypt alive? Is Hellenic Greece alive? The Aztecs, Incas — all dead. The same invaders who came here went to those places; those cultures are all wiped out. But we are still standing. So in my mind, the story of the last thousand years is the story of the greatest resistance in human history.
No indigenous group of people has fought so long and so hard to protect their culture. And that, to me, is the image we should have of our ancestors. We are not descendants of cowardly weaklings who lost battles — we are descendants of the toughest buggers around, the only pre-Bronze Age culture that has kept its culture alive. We should be proud; our backs should be straight. We are descendants of tough people, not defeated, broken people.
So to me, these three aspects all coalesce into the Indic Chronicles. That’s why I want to showcase the battles of our ancestors who fought those invaders. These two books are out; many more books will follow. And like I said, this is about Indians fighting foreigners. You will notice in my books, I show Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists fighting together. I show people from all regions together, men and women all fighting against foreigners. This, to me, is one core philosophy that we need to embed.
I must also bring up with the wonderful epigraph to the book, in which you, as in all your works, reiterate that the Motherland is Sanatan — she is immortal — and “Bhaarat will never die”. It is quite a strong beginning to this book, since the story itself is so steeped in the history and legacy of our own land, like everything you’ve written so far. Could you tell us what this line means to you personally and as a storyteller?
The Motherland is Sanatan; it will never die. As long as one of us lives, our Motherland will live. We need to have that belief. Our history books have forced into us the attitude of a defeated people. We keep our heads down. When someone attacks us from outside, we are told: “You guys are useless people, you don’t know how to fight, your economy is dead,” and we immediately just go into a shell.
But that’s wrong. We need to stand united. I am not saying we should not have our internal arguments. We are an argumentative people — that is who we are, and we should celebrate it. Nothing wrong with that. Within ourselves, we will have our debates — political debates, cultural debates — all that is good. Good debates lead to better results. I am not saying I am taking any side within India. But one philosophy, to me, has to be very clear: never pick the side of a foreigner against a fellow Indian. No matter how much you dislike that fellow Indian, never pick the side of a foreigner. This is not nativist — this is self-preservation. Because we have often lost in the last thousand years due to a lack of unity. Why did we lose the Battle of Palashi (Plassey)? The same thing. It has happened repeatedly to us. I often quote the Jallianwala Bagh example — there was a White officer giving the order, but every person firing was actually an Indian. Prithviraj Chauhan lost because of internal divisions. So many times, we have repeatedly lost because of internal divisions.
I am repeating — I am not taking a side within India. Have those debates. But if any Indian picks the side of a foreigner, no matter what moral justification you give to it, that, to me, is unacceptable. If you pick the side of a foreigner against a fellow Indian, that is unacceptable. This is sometimes criticised as nativist — no, it is not. It is self-preservation.
Many would say that Dharma and karma are the central motifs of The Chola Tigers, not merely as religious ideas but also as living philosophies that continue to define the Indian way of being. Was it your intention to remind readers that even in politics and war, these eternal principles continue to shape the destiny of a civilisation like ours, and that we need to live by them even in today’s times? Young people do look up to your work a lot...
(Pause) I don’t know, man, I haven’t thought about this that deeply! I guess it is just who I am. I am not saying I am trying to be someone who could have an influence and hopefully have a positive impact. But at least one of the things that is there in my mind is: among the greatest privileges you can be given is a public platform, where your words have some meaning for people. If you have been given that privilege, then you should try and do something positive.
I am not saying you have to start doing satsangs and become boring — you should still be entertaining, because you should attract, you should be engaging. But don’t do something negative with it. It is not just about the money, because, look, if the purpose is just to make money, there are other easier routes. The purpose cannot be just fame and money. The purpose should be to do something good for the Motherland. Aid the cause of unity, aid the cause of deeper thinking, of deeper philosophical thought. That is essentially the thought that guides you and continues to help you while you are in your zone.
That is what will make our society sustain. What is the root of the word Dharma? It is dhri — it means that which sustains, that which balances, that which is not short-term, that which is not temporary. Very often we make choices that look very good from a short-term perspective, but long-term are not good for us. Among the things our ancestors teach us is that extremism of any kind should be avoided, because extremism, of any kind, may lead to benefits in the short term, but in the long term, it is usually bad for you.
What do I mean by that? Excessive violence in a society is not good — of course, that is obvious — but excessive non-violence is not good either. If you cannot defend yourself, you will get killed. You must have women’s rights, of course, but that does not mean you have to hate men for it. You must have transgender rights, of course, but that does not mean you have to hate cisgender people for it. You notice in the West, they just swing from one extreme to the other. They just do not get that sense of balance.
And the thing with balance is that it may appear boring right now, because extremism has this edgy coolness to it, which may appear very good in the short term, but it is not good for you in the long term. Secondly, being balanced means results come more slowly; you won’t get them overnight. And another thing that I have learnt is things which usually happen overnight don’t last.
The modern day has become such that everything is extreme. You see the Internet, it’s all extremes, all “I want my results right now”. Relationships have become that way. I engage a lot with the youth, so I hear about all these ‘situationships’ and whatnot. And I’m like, look, have fun in life, but realise there are consequences to this as well. If you’re planning to die in the next three years, then that’s fine. But if you’re planning to live till 75-80, think through the consequences, right? The Internet never forgets — what you post today you may have to see 20 years later when you have children, 40 years later when you have grandchildren, 10 years later when you’re working a job. Think through, that’s all.
The moment you think long-term, you notice you always become balanced. It’s natural, in relationships, in everything, the kind of partner you will fall in love with, the kind of job you will take, everything becomes more balanced. That’s what I try and speak on.
Indian philosophy has always viewed time as cyclical — not linear — where civilisations rise, decline, and are reborn, which you mention in the epilogue to this story as well. Was that sense of continuity — of Bhaarat’s eternal renewal — something you consciously wanted readers to feel through this story?
One of the concepts of ritu, which is used as “season” now, is the fact that the original root of the term essentially means “cycle”, the natural order of the universe and of life. Things go in what appear to be cycles, but it’s actually more of a spiral, where you are going forward but also rising in consciousness. If the sun is setting, it will rise again. If the sun is at its peak, it will decline. That’s the natural order of things. If our civilisation were at its peak, it would decline; if it has declined, it will rise again. When you understand this, it builds calmness into your thinking — an acceptance of the natural order and cycles of life.
Speaking of the natural cycle of life, you’ve often said that every story you write is, in some way, a spiritual exploration. Looking back on your journey from The Immortals of Meluha to The House of Cholas, 12 books into your career, how do you feel you’ve evolved, not only as a writer, but also as a seeker?
Yes, I’ve written 12 books so far. I think the greatest blessing of my books is not the money or the fame; it’s that they’ve changed my character and given me the strength to handle many things. I was a particular type of person — you know what MBA types are like: hyper-aggressive, insecure. That hyper-aggression comes from inside — insecurity, to be honest. The hyper-competitiveness — “I got a bonus? No, it isn’t high enough”; “I got a promotion? Why didn’t I get it earlier?” It comes from insecurity, and I was that way — hyper-aggressive, shouting and screaming a lot.
But the books have actually slowly centred me and calmed me down, and that has helped a lot. I went through a very difficult personal phase in 2015, for some six or seven years. It was one of the reasons I used to just focus on my books and wanted to be away from things. Frankly, it was one of the reasons I went to London as well — I just didn’t want to be here. I didn’t want to be in the public space. The career was going very well, but there were lots of personal tragedies in our family. It was a very difficult time.
I don’t know how well I would have handled it if I was still the kind of character I was. And look, all of us will go through ups and downs — no one escapes it. It’s part of life. That’s what my books and relearning all these philosophies again have helped me understand. What you have to suffer, you have to suffer, especially if there’s nothing you can do about it. Someone gets cancer, someone gets a heart attack — what can you do? It’s life. You have to suffer what there is to suffer, hold your family close, and get through it. That’s what I learnt from my books.
To me, that is the greatest lesson. It’s never about how you handle things in good times; it’s about how strongly you can handle things in difficult times that ends up defining your life. If you can not let the good times go to your head, and if you can ensure that the bad times don’t destroy your soul and heart, then you are a worthy worshipper of Lord Shiva.
And finally, for someone who has brought so many layers of Indian civilisation to the attention of readers, what continues to inspire you?
Lord Shiva, Mother India, my family — these three things, the centre of my life.